RWA Radio

Travis John (00:01.41)
And we're live. So welcome back to another episode of Insyder Talks. Today we have a special guest. We have Dr. Ravi Chamria. He is the co-founder and CEO of Zeeve. And I wanted to welcome you to the show. How you doing, Ravi?

Ravi C | Zeeve (00:14.108)
Yeah, doing great. Thanks, Travis, for welcoming me and very excited to be on this show.

Travis John (00:19.832)
Thank you. Yeah, I know that we're working together on a couple of things. We're to get into talking app chains, roll ups, lot of exciting things. And I know I've read some of your content pieces just about how fast really your thesis is with roll ups and app chains and how they're leading the way into redefining this kind of like the next era of Web3, right? Because it's all really about adoption and scale. And app chains and roll ups have a lot to do with that. And one of the things, of course, you're doing

and we've been working together lately is you're very active in putting on IRL events and you've been doing this all over the globe and you have one coming up for roll up an app chain. So I'll just I wanted to plant that seed here before we kind of get into the content. So coming up at ETH Denver, we'll have the App Chain Roll Up Day that's coming on the 28th. That's on the Friday at ETH Denver. So we'll chat more about that at the end. But I just wanted to kind of bring that up, I guess.

Before we go into kind of more about your thesis and all these things happening, maybe tell me a little bit about how Zeeve came about, how you got into doing this, and we'll take it from there.

Ravi C | Zeeve (01:30.3)
Yeah, so I've been into IT consulting or IT space as an entrepreneur for almost 25 years. Started my journey with the dot com during the internet era of 98. And then, know, before getting into blockchain, I was in fintech space for seven, eight years. Got into blockchain in 17 with the intent of solving some problems in the enterprise space. And while working with enterprises, we saw a challenge of, you know, setting up

enterprise-grade blockchain networks. And that's where we got the motivation to start Zeeve, to build a no-code automation platform, make it super, super easy to automatically deploy blockchain networks and manage it, bring in security and compliances and all third-party integrations, et cetera. So that's how Zeeve was started about four years back. And we started with enterprise segment and then moved on to public protocol space. And it has been a very, very exciting journey so far.

Travis John (02:13.741)
you

Travis John (02:29.321)
That's great. Yeah, and I kind of

Travis John (02:44.394)
I had a little delay there, sorry. Got my start back in the dot com area too, so I'm sure we can share some stories about how this really took effect and how it shaped a lot of how we're both working in this field. think that was really interesting time and I think we've seen some parallels to the crypto blockchain world and I think that keeps us from getting in trouble from you see other things and you kind of see the signs of

you know maybe some people are doing some things wrong that we may have seen back in our day from the dot com era.

Ravi C | Zeeve (03:20.443)
Absolutely.

Travis John (03:21.868)
Yeah. So let's talk a little bit about, I mean, that's great. Let's talk a little bit about some of the role of roll-ups and app chains for layer ones and layer twos. A lot of people look at them and they're positioned as complementary to L1 and L2s. How do you see their adoption enhancing or competing with existing blockchain systems? I know that's a big area of debate, and I'm curious what gaps you think they fill as well.

Ravi C | Zeeve (03:54.098)
Yeah, so I think so there are three areas that we have seen in as you know, we started with enterprises. There are permission protocols that most of the enterprises have been using, like, you know, hyperledger fabric, based, etc. Now, the challenges with permission protocols were like, you know, they were too private to permissioned in nature. And, know, and that's why, you know, very few consortiums have been using it. And there is no larger decentralization narrative that powers them. So that was a challenge.

with permission protocols. But they did offer security, compliances, other benefits that enterprises were looking at. On the other side, if you see dApps, which are deploying directly on public chains, like Ethereum or Polygon POS or Binance, now they get ready-made hosting platform where they can put on their dApps. They don't need to worry about the underlying infra.

But they land up into scalability challenges. There's a congestion. They are fighting for the shared block space. So that's where scalability challenges started coming in. So they are getting the benefits of security and decentralization, but the scalability becomes a challenge. And then, of course, if they want to have data privacy, their use case demands some kind of compliances, it becomes very, very difficult for them to realize that or build that while working on a public chain.

On the third scenario is you launch your own custom chain, which was very common four or five years back. We, in fact, built quite a few L1 chains for a lot of customers. It was a long-drawn exercise building a chain, then bringing lot of validators to decentralize it, build a community around it. So it was a long-drawn exercise. Especially, validator onboarding was very, very tough. And that is very much required to have sufficient decentralization.

So there you had your own choices. You could have configurations. You can have your compliances. But at the same time, it was very difficult to onboard so many validators to have sufficient decentralization. So if you see all these three segments, they had their own set of challenges. And that is where I believe Rollups and AppChains, they came in to solve all these three together. With Rollups today, you have both the flavors. You have Rollup. You have Ethereum.

Ravi C | Zeeve (06:16.22)
So that means you have control over the data, how you manage the data so you have compliances. Second, you do not need to worry about creating your own validator set because your security and decentralization is coming directly from Ethereum in the case of Rollups. And there is a concept of AVS like, you know, Eigen AVS. And then similarly, Cosmos has come up with ICS and similar initiatives have come in, like, you know, Babylon bringing Bitcoin security to the AVM ecosystem.

So security and decentralization is taken care of. The compliances are taken care of. And on the scalability side, since it's your chain, every Rollup app chain is your own chain. So you can have your own configs. You can have some customizations, whatever you want, depending on your use case. You can have gasless transactions if you want. So using account extraction, like enterprises, they typically want that, OK, I don't want the use of token. My use case, I don't want to expose.

gas transactions or token transactions to the end users. So they can do that using gasless transactions. And then at the same time, you get massive scalability. So like, you if you use optimistic rollups, you can easily get 3000 to 4000 transactions per second. And then, know, ZK rollups are today, like, you know, are sitting at lower TPS right now, but as they are going to mature in 2025, we are going to see much, much higher TPS. If you see some of the stacks like Avalon Chalwan,

Travis John (07:14.219)
you

You

Ravi C | Zeeve (07:42.526)
You know, already you can do 10,000 TPS. Cosmos SDK, again, Bera chain is one derivative of Cosmos SDK, 10,000 TPS. you are taking care of scalability, you are taking care of compliances, you have a lot of flexibility in terms of configurations and customizations for your use case. At the same time, you are getting the maximum benefit of security and decentralization coming out of Bitcoin and Ethereum ecosystem.

Travis John (08:10.205)
Yeah.

Ravi C | Zeeve (08:10.6)
So that I believe is a very, very strong narrative and solving a lot of problems as what the other blockchain systems could not provide.

Travis John (08:21.012)
Totally agree. That really well said. I think the, touched on a lot of this and I think that one thing that just comes to my mind, you you think about this, it's almost like when people were building their own L1, they're building like their own Apple App Store. You know, instead of building an app on the Apple App Store, they were having to go through all the effort of building an entire app store themselves. And like you said, in general, purpose-built.

specific to their application and what they're looking to do is really what most enterprises are looking to accomplish. They're not looking to be the technology provider. They're looking to be, you know, solve a specific problem, solve a certain, you know, have they have a certain use case that they want to why and why they need to scale. And also, as you noted, you know, they can adopt all of the all of the benefits of the L1 with all of the without all this extra cost and parameters, but also like they can customize it.

to their needs, like you said, if they want to shield gas costs or eliminate gas costs, all those kinds of things are benefits for that. And also scalability, like you mentioned, aside from security. So you touched on this a little bit from enterprises looking to do this. But I guess what are some example companies that you use a couple with Avalanche and stuff, but just in specific use cases, like enterprises are looking to do this that are using app chains and roll-ups.

currently and how you see that use case working.

Ravi C | Zeeve (09:50.418)
Yeah, so there are quite a few use cases. think enterprises are still warming up to the idea. But we have a few cases, like if I talk about some of our own existing customers, like we have Siemens Energy, which is using Avalon L 1, powering a carbon credit use case. Then we have Deutsche Bank, which is part of the Project Guardian through Memento blockchain using ZK Rollup, using ZK Singh ZK Chain.

Then we have Remedy, which is a healthcare player, have got massive healthcare institutions using their platform, using Avalon Shell 1, including all HIPAA data compliances in place. are based out of US. Then Sony, think these are some of the customers, then some of the external, like Sony recently launched with OPStack, and then we have a Deloitte case study, which did using Avalon.

Travis John (10:35.591)
Wow.

Ravi C | Zeeve (10:48.806)
and JP Morgan built a use case with Avalanche and Axelar coming into picture. So I think a lot of enterprises are now looking at rollups. And there are quite a few others, which I cannot name right now, but there are a lot of enterprises, banks, and government institutions who are working with us, who are using rollups and app change stacks to build some use case or the other.

There are plethora of use cases. In the financial services, they are into supply chain, digital record management, tokenization, real world asset tokenization is very compelling. We have one customer called Sawala. They are into commodity tokenization. It's already a live platform. And now they are onboarding lot of enterprise players, including banks, as secondary market players. So and then,

In the government, are again their own set of public use cases. So quite a few players, I would say.

Travis John (11:52.306)
Yeah, I guess I could probably guess the answer to this, but I'm curious for the next one. the types of institutions that are coming to you right now, you just named several. So I know there's a lot, but I would guess that one of the biggest factors they talk about first is compliance, Like compliance and security, just given the current nature of where we're at in blockchain and adoption. And particularly, like you mentioned, a lot of the use cases you mentioned are dealing with financial services or financial applications.

you where they probably are concerned about that but I'm curious like you know because obviously there's governance there's tokenomics you brought in brought up some of this clearly there's an interoperability and scalability questions but you know what are what are some of the leading things is is it compliance is that one of the biggest things that they're concerned about right off the bat

Ravi C | Zeeve (12:40.54)
Yeah, compliance definitely is, which is, know, so all the regulatory requirements or compliance requirements, which confirms to their internal policies or security policies, that is definitely a must. But, know, like Rollup stacks, you know, there's a Validium option where you have data control. And, you know, in fact, there's another interesting concept called Volition by Zk, which where you can have part of the data, you know, public and part of the data, which is got private.

So you can have different flavor and then you have data availability committee option, DSE with Polygon CDK, where you can have a consortium, a private consortium, which is taking care of the data. So different options based on your use case, based on your compliance requirement. And then at the protocol level, you can have implementation of identity, so decentralized identity. We recently partnered with Prevado, which was earlier Polygon decentralized identity. And then

Apart from that, you can have KYC AML checks enabled at the protocol layer. So a lot of options are there because at the of the day, it's your chain, your code. You can configure it in whichever way. And it also allows some kind of customization required. So I think compliance definitely is super, super important. That goes without saying. Apart from that, I think from a use case perspective, we have seen in the enterprise space a lot of industry consortium failed.

because they could not gain traction. There were a lot of agency problems, you know, who is driving the consortium, competitors in an industry coming together. So governance, I think, becomes very important. So having a decentralized governance, again, having a public favor rather than, you know, highly private nature of blockchain makes it very, very easy so that people can trust, especially minority partners in a consortium. They can feel

Travis John (14:34.843)
you

Ravi C | Zeeve (14:36.03)
more secure and can trust the consortium. I believe that governance from operational activities and taking tactical decisions on the chain also becomes very, important. Apart from that, rest of the pieces are how to extend over a period of time, token economics may or may not be important. In some cases, yes, where depending again on the use case.

If token is it's an asset-backed token or it's a utility token, depending on what the token type is. And in some cases, as I mentioned, it may be completely gasless so that you give a superior web two kind of user experience to the users so that they don't even realize. And then we are seeing there are a few use cases which have been implemented in India where people even don't know that blockchain is being used as the backend infrastructure. So that is, think, is going to be the new era of use cases where

end users will never realize that they are using something which has got a blockchain backend.

Travis John (15:40.69)
hiding the wires is definitely the goal and you know that from the dot-com thing where everything was about the dot-com and nothing was about the business that was actually happening. And I think that's we've seen some of that in blockchain where everything's about the blockchain but it's not about the business and I like how you're explaining it's like you're hiding the blockchain like the users don't necessarily need to know that and I think that that dovetails into

Ravi C | Zeeve (15:50.908)
Right.

Travis John (16:08.621)
some of the key points of why, know, like security is a selling point. I'm curious if you could explain a little bit about that. You know, how does inherent security from like Ethereum, other L1s like Avalanche, the rollups address these enterprise great requirements, you know, particularly for like the regulated industries that we've been talking about, like for healthcare, finance, you already have clients in these areas. I know this is very clear for you.

Ravi C | Zeeve (16:33.662)
Yeah, security is of course, security and decentralization is a bit complex when it comes to navigating the enterprise space. So now some enterprises like as I took the case of Deutsche Bank as part of Project Guardian, they are using ZK Sync, ZK Rollup. So ZK Rollup, are using Ethereum security. So in some cases, they can use Ethereum security. We know that Ethereum is the most vibrant

ecosystem at the same time a network, is millions of nodes are running now. It is highly secure and all the proofs are being submitted. Like in the case of ZK rollups, the ZK proofs are being submitted and verified on Ethereum. So that way, all the transactions that you are doing, the proofs are residing on Ethereum, which is very, very secure. So one way is that. The second is

Let's say you are setting up an Avalanche L1 chain, then you can have your own validator set. And then within that, you can have your consortium. So let's say you are a banking consortium and you are running some use cases, let's say a trade finance use case, and you want to have your importers, importing banks, exporting banks, and some of the other intermediaries to run the validators, then you can create a consortium of all these and they can be running the validators.

So that way you can take care of the security because it's not as secure as a public network like Ethereum, but still you know that all the major players in the consortium are well covered because they themselves are running the validated rules. So depending on the use case, depending on you can choose the stack and then accordingly you can see what kind of security and decentralization can be achieved.

Travis John (18:23.801)
Perfect. And I guess this goes parallel right into like from a scaling question. You touched on this earlier, but I don't know there's anything else you want to add about just how rollups and app chains address more of the scaling problem. And of course, cost structure as well. How does that benefit the end user to look at a rollup or an app chain versus a full application, like a full L1 type of thing?

Ravi C | Zeeve (18:52.776)
Yeah, if you see an L1, like L1 has got all the layers together built in. So there's a consensus layer, there's an execution layer, which are all combined together. In the rollup, essentially, what we are doing is we are moving the execution layer outside the Ethereum network. So the security and decentralization is still being covered by Ethereum, but the execution of transactions is happening

on the rollup chain. So now you have a rollup chain, which is a blockchain in itself. You are doing all the transactions there. You can define the gas. You can have your native gas token. You can define the gas, how the gas will be charged. So it can be as minimum as possible. It can be zero if you want, or it can be completely gasless. And you will have a higher throughput. So scalability is completely solved. then you know, so from a Ethereum standpoint, actually all the transactions are happening off chain.

on your rollup chain. And then the proofs of these transactions are submitted on Ethereum. So that way, scalability is not a challenge. Now you have more control over the cost. You control the gas cost. And you control whether the gas has to be there or not from a user standpoint. So you can configure accordingly.

Travis John (19:54.467)
All

Travis John (20:17.207)
Yeah, I love that. I think, you know, and I'm asking some of these more simple questions because they know like, for some of the projects that listen to this, they're thinking about, you know, what decisions to make like technical stack, you know, how to how to, you know, set up their application, whether it's like you said, whether it's an institution or enterprise, it's, you know, 100 years old, or it's a startup that's, you know, 100 days old, you know, they're all looking for specific solutions and

Many are finding that the App Chain and Roll-Up solutions are much more fitting to their use cases. Are you seeing that to be more from your inbound when people are connecting with you at these events as well as your inbound discussions? Is that seeming to be a higher escalation of requests these days because of that?

Ravi C | Zeeve (21:11.998)
Yeah, no, 100%. So what, see, from a use case perspective, we see that all use cases fit very nicely, very well to the rollups and app chain stacks. It's only that if you are starting and you expect very few transactions initially, then setting up your own rollup or app chain is a bit expensive for position, right? Because end of the day, it's you're creating a blockchain of yourself.

So it's going to be more expensive than running your application or dApp on a public chain, where you are actually sharing, or it's like a shared hosting versus your dedicated machines. So that difference will still be there. So if you are like in the traditional hosting environment, you buy a dedicated machine, even if you are not using it, you are consuming only 10 % of the capacity, still you are paying for the whole of it. So that same thing happens in the case of when you set up a roll up an app chain.

Travis John (21:51.437)
Right.

Ravi C | Zeeve (22:08.85)
So when your transactions are less, then of course it becomes an expensive proposition. But as your transactions scale, then it becomes very, very economical. At the same time, the user experience, you have massive user experience. And then players like us, we have made it so easy. We have one-click deployments. Then we have brought in 60 integration partners we have.

across all categories. So if you want to have, let's say, decentralized Oracle or interoperability or storage or account abstraction, so we can bring in all these partners, plug and play and integrate with your chain. Then we work directly with the product teams of these roll-up stacks. So we ensure that you get all the updates, upgrades. We provide 24-7 monitoring. So the point is that we abstract the entire infrastructure for the startup. So they don't need to worry or hire

or train their internal resources to build and launch and manage their chains. That is something that we handle completely for them. They still need to focus purely on their DApp development, building their business, building their community, and their GTM and so on and so forth. But still, I would say that, yes, you do require a certain number of transactions or a certain amount of traction.

Travis John (23:14.403)
Yep.

Ravi C | Zeeve (23:32.828)
before it makes up viable or commercial viability or sense.

Travis John (23:39.426)
percent yeah and and you you had you kind of telegraph the next question for me because you know Zeve has some of the most if not the most partnerships from the L1s and from the integrations so I know you've mentioned a couple so far in this conversations but I'd love for you to maybe just spend a moment kind of explaining some of your your L1 partnerships some of your providers your integrators because like you mentioned you're you are abstracting all this you are providing this kind of like

done for you, know, roll up AppChain type of layer. And I'd love for you to kind of share some of the additional companies you're working with because it is a way for people to get access to the Polkadot, the Cosmos ecosystem, the Avalanche ecosystem, the Ethereum ecosystem. So I'll let you kind of explain more. I'd love to hear about that.

Ravi C | Zeeve (24:32.35)
Yeah, so on the optimistic roll-up stacks, we work with Optimism, OPStack, and Arbitrum, Arbitrum Orbit stack. On ZK roll-up side, we work with Polygon, CDK, and ZKSync, ZK chains. Then on the AppChain stack, we work with Avalanche, L1, Cosmos SDK, and Substrate. So these are primarily seven stack that we work with. And then there are a few other partnerships that are right now a work in progress.

Travis John (24:56.661)
Mm-hmm.

Ravi C | Zeeve (25:00.838)
and we are seeing how they are maturing and the ecosystem is evolving. So we will probably forge a couple more partnerships this year. But right now the focus is on some of these stacks. then, so these are the stacks. Then there are other integration partners like on the rollups. On the data availability side, we work with all the major providers, Celestia, Avel, Eigen, as well as Near. And then,

We work with crewers like Sintree or Gevelet. And then we work with account abstraction, Bykonomi and Pimlico, ZeroDev. And similarly, on the interoperability side, we work with Hyperlane, Axelar, Router Protocol. then, so accordingly, in the developer tools, we work very closely with ThirdWeb. so across all categories, wallet infrastructure, we work with Den, Safe,

you know, payment infrastructure. So across all categories. And we continue to add more and more partners as you know, wherever demands come from. And then we have couple our own products. So we have one product on the Explorer side. So we have our own block Explorer called Tracehawk. And then another product for data indexing called Traceeye, which again is very integral for all custom app chains and rollups. We already have, you know, more than

100 installations for these. So yeah, so this is largely our partner ecosystem and we try to build more and more native integrations and create a win-win situation with our partners.

Travis John (26:45.783)
It's very obvious. Yeah. And I know obviously from knowing your team and seeing how you operate, it's very clear. And like you mentioned, the type of partnerships you have and the tech stack that you're able to offer your clients is amazing. mean, as we're kind of winding down, but I do want to kind of talk about, because I think there's always that question as we've been talking about so far, is, OK, we heard about all the benefits. We heard about who your partners are, what the tech stacks look like. So what is a framework decision making?

look like for your clients, with options that you describe. Now again, I know each one is, know a lot of this becomes very bespoke, but what should projects or protocols consider when they're selecting this framework, based on a lot of things that you've talked about, going through the app chain route, which ecosystems, going the roll-up route, et cetera.

I know this can be very long answer, but this is kind of more generalized, of course. But I'm just curious in general, when someone's just from step one, like someone listening to this, it's kind of looking at this, of course, that's what this conversations are about is kind of helping to kind of get people interested in this concept of maybe this is for them as an enterprise, as a startup, et cetera. So I'll let you kind of share maybe a little bit of that.

Ravi C | Zeeve (28:07.858)
Right. Yeah, so of course, this is a very complex piece. But I'll lay down some of the criteria or parameters that becomes important. So one is ecosystem itself. Like, which stack has got what kind of ecosystem? And quite a few startups, they align with a certain ecosystem. So for example, somebody is already part of Polygon. They are running on Polygon POS. So their natural inclination would be to jump onto Polygon

CDK and builders ZK are all up using that. Somebody is already building on optimism or base. They would like to go for OP stack, you know. So one is either they are already aligned with that ecosystem or they would like to align with that ecosystem. So ecosystem becomes very important. And then, you know, every ecosystem offers their own benefits. They may have some incentives, grants or community or investors. So what the ecosystem, how the ecosystem is helping a startup. They take up, you know,

decision based on that. Then there's a maturity of stack. like ZK rollup stacks are right now in the stage of maturation. So it depends on your use case. Some use cases do require that they want to have ZK as part of their strategy. So they would like to have ZK to start with. Some believe that they want to have a mature stack today because they are running a DeFi use case and they already have users and transactions. So they would probably prefer optimistic rollup or Avalon Shell one, is

Travis John (29:36.319)
you

Ravi C | Zeeve (29:36.862)
massively mature, right? So maturity becomes another consideration. And then based on maturity then comes into picture your TPS and performance. so there are then minor nuances that comes into picture. Some may require, depending on their use case, a very low latency, a very high throughput. Then they may choose one stack or the other based on what the throughput situation is, a block time, and so on and so forth.

Travis John (29:52.862)
Okay.

Ravi C | Zeeve (30:06.8)
And then cost, again, sometimes become a factor because each stack has a different requirements to set up and run it. So cost, again, may become a factor. But we see that cost as comparison from stack to stack is normally not a very big factor. yeah, comparison from whether to run a dApp on a public chain, vis-a-vis, launching your own roll-up and app chain, cost definitely is a big factor.

Travis John (30:15.326)
.

Travis John (30:35.439)
Yeah.

Ravi C | Zeeve (30:35.954)
while comparing between these stacks or among these stacks, it's not a major factor, but still it's a factor. So yeah, so these are some of the criteria I would say, high level, which plays a role based on our experience.

Travis John (30:50.194)
Amazing answer. Yeah, I love that and I think that lastly I'll wrap up with this and this ties into what you were just saying but how much of a Factor or strategic asset is the interoperability aspect, you know, like I guess that becomes because they're you just explained Okay, they're gonna pick this technical Stack and set up but as we know, you know a lot of these things become interoperable, know There's a lot of interoperability opportunities now You know

Should projects plan for that? Are you seeing them plan for that? Does that even seem like it's... Are they just more looking to solve the problem? Do what they need to do first based on their first App Chain Rollup.

Ravi C | Zeeve (31:30.908)
I would say both. We have seen quite a few startups focus on interoperability, again, depending on use cases, like they are operating in DeFi payments, interop becomes very, very important, especially cross-chain liquidity. And I think what we have seen is with these different roll-ups stacks come into picture and building an ecosystem around them, roll-ups have ended up fragmenting the Ethereum ecosystem. So interoperability,

the whole chain abstraction narrative or the interoperability is actually defragmenting the ecosystem and bringing them together into Ethereum. So I think interoperability is very, very important. So if you see the Superchain Initiative by OPStack, so the whole idea is that how to bring in all the OPStack chains together. If you see the Ag layer initiative by Polygon, the idea is that not just TDK chains, but other chains can also collaborate together. So that's again an interoperability initiative. And then there are a lot of

Travis John (32:08.028)
Mm-hmm.

Ravi C | Zeeve (32:27.294)
chain abstraction initiatives today, allowing much better alternative to traditional bridges and so on and so forth so that better interoperability can be there. So I think interoperability is a very strong narrative, very, very important. Some startups do not consider that to be important initially because their use cases may not require it, or they may not require from a business perspective. Their priorities are

bit different at the starting point, but eventually, yes, interoperability becomes very, very important. And I think each of these roll-up stacks have worked massively in this space. lot of external other startups, as well as the protocol themselves, they have been very, very, I would say, in achieving interoperability or adopting or integrating one way or the other.

Travis John (33:19.333)
Yeah, that's that's excellent and like you mentioned this is all kind of has the same common denominator of of abstraction hiding the blockchain You know as much as possible in the future as you know depending on your use case of course I mean if you have all technical users that's a different story But you know most of these applications are you know have end users that are not even necessarily always blockchain native you know so You know it you're right. It's really interesting to to see how this is evolving and

and how, you know, and I guess the trends seem to be continuing to move, not just the interoperable side, but to, as you've mentioned with your thesis and as Eve has been proving out, is the App Chain and roll-up side is, it seems to be the next evolution. There's probably not going to be as many mega L1s, you know, that are out there now. It's like a lot of the next evolution seems to be if you're building or if you're a big enterprise even.

The L1, a chain as a service, roll up as a service is really the way to go.

Ravi C | Zeeve (34:24.702)
Yeah, absolutely. And we are already seeing the trend, you know. It has been a massive trend in 24 and we are seeing the early trends in 25 as well.

Travis John (34:34.629)
Yeah, that's great. So yeah, this has been an outstanding conversation. again, Dr. Ravi, pleasure for you joining me and kind of sharing all of the great insights about Zeeve and what's happening, the trends in the space. Again, anybody who's listening, if you're listening before February 28th, Ethereum Denver, the biggest blockchain conference in United States, gonna have the 2025 shaping up to be a really great year. The roll up day.

AppChain Day is going to be happening from 11 to 3.30 on the 28th. So please check out our website to see that. It's the rollupday.com is the event site. And you'd be able to check that out and get more information about Zeeve as well. But as we're parting, Ravi, let us know where everybody can find you and get in contact with Zeeve. And we'll close it out.

Ravi C | Zeeve (35:31.684)
Absolutely. think thanks everyone. Thanks for listening and thanks Travis for this opportunity. It was great talking to you. And I think I'm available on LinkedIn as well as Twitter. So connect with me if you have any questions. You can always book a consulting session with me. And I would love to, know, if you have any questions, if you're starting up, building up, have any questions regarding the roll up app chain, I would love to, you know, help you out in any ways.

And I would say keep building, keep smiling.

Travis John (36:04.901)
Absolutely great parting words. Thank you for your time today. We'll talk soon. look forward to seeing you in Denver.

Ravi C | Zeeve (36:09.118)
Thank you. Thanks, thanks, David.